HA HA YOU FOOL!!! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! I knew the cheese was on the Nachos the whole time!

YOU’RE WRONG THAT’S NOT HOW IT WORKS!

wait?

heh heh

Good try buddy. I’m not falling for that old trick.

One can’t find the button to push. The other pushes every single fucking button they can find.

Counter Point: the [ziti|grape|M&M etc] that tries to flee from the bowl gets eaten FIRST; RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

I simply said their assertion was made in bad faith.

And we can probably agree to disagree on that. -Cheers and enjoy your Thanksgiving (if US based of course)

Moving past the joke of de-gendering a gendered colloquialism; yes I do agree with you on both of your points.

You’re not wrong. But if you want to 1) eliminate any chance of assumed gender in “Boss” due to cultural history, and 2) have a little fun with moving the mark into the absurd, you’d appreciate what I’m saying.

Ah well then perhaps we agree more than we thought :) Cheers Mate!

oh crap did I [whoosh]? sorry.

In my defense, in this thread, that was way too easy to read with a snarky tone as it was with a sarcastic tone. But I can totally hear it now!

I’m not removing it as irrelevant from all things. I’m saying its irrelevant as part of a discussion for what other traits define many and/or are exclusively manly.

I’m not really sure what you’re asking with ,“is your assertion that a woman or enby would use the word “manly” to describe and identity of being a responsible adult?”

For sure I’m not looking for a single authoritative definition. I am, in fact rejecting just about any definition or even the need for one. I am, at the end of my logic train, begging the question, “why does it even matter?” I certainly don’t care if society deems me “a man” or “manly”. I don’t judge other people by such a rubric. I think society would be better off if we work to actively reject such notions since they lead to gatekeeping which is rarely helpful. All that matters is that I’m happy with who I am, within the bounds of whatever it means to also being good to other people.

Obviously that opinion means it will be very hard for someone to come up with examples of traits* that are actually really honestly unique to man/male-ness which a woman can’t/won’t/shouldn’t also possess as part of being a good responsible person? I have yet to hear any. They ALL a equally true for a good person regardless of gender / gender identity.

*In this context I will concede the obvious biological function you’ve pointed out, while at the same time ignoring it as irrelevant because it can stand on it’s own AND have no impact on the other traits being discussed. Just because someone “handles themselves like an adult and happens to be male” doesn’t in mean it logically follows that handling oneself as an adult = male. Just like the equally valid sentence, “handles themselves like an adult and happens to be female” doesn’t make handling oneself as an adult = female. They just mean you’re a responsible adult and not an irresponsible child.

Well like, that’s just your opinion man.

The problem is you didn’t just call out their shitty identity

Check the usernames. Someone that claims misandry as their identity,

you also tried to use it to negate their assertion

is just spreading it.

Or said another way, you made an ad hominem attack and I called you YOU out on it.

[face palm] I haven’t seen that movie in a LOOOONG time.

I ignored it because I feel it’s not germane to the topic at hand; and I have no argument with your assertion either as it pertains to what the biological role of a “man” is in reproduction. But biological functions are not part of the discussion of traits of, or imposed expectations of, feeling like a man.

I disagree that being someone who fills the “biological reproductive male role” has anything to do with being or needing to feel “manly”. Since “manly” in my opinion is purely a cultural imposition. More so, any traits generally being mentioned in this whole thread are not exclusive to being a man, but of a good person.

From the rest of your reply though we’ll just have to agree to disagree that the “biological reproductive male role” has any influence on the discussion of what it means when a man says “sometimes a man wants to feel like a man” or similar discussions about what it means to be a man, or to use your word “manly”, because we’ll probably disagree about what it means to BE manly. But I also don’t concern myself with being manly so that might be the disconnect.

I’m sorry you feel that way. But as a testicle-American I can say the feeling is not universal.

Those aren’t traits of a man. Those are traits of a human. Both other than that, 100% agree a person needs that.

If that’s the role-play you need from your partner and she agrees to it and you reciprocate; then sure. But it isn’t society’s, or your co-workers’, job to do that.

Yeah that’s pretty much my thought as well. I don’t seem to ever concern myself with “feeling” like a man, or even acting like one. I just act like who I am, and mostly concern myself with just trying to be a better human and I’m a long work in progress on that. But none of it is tied to some conscious sense of masculinity. I know the culture I was raised in certainly has an unconscious influence, but I can only effect those as I am made aware of them. For sure some of my worst traits are associated with maleness, but I don’t consider them what makes me feel like a man when they come out, and for sure make me feel like an asshole. And we men and women both have assholes ;-)

man up boss up emotional-fortitude up, morer gender neutral.

Its the “man” vs “boy” part, as in, a sign of maturity, of coming of age where you stop being a young and selfish boy and can see where you are in the world and what responsibilities you have to yourself and those around you in society.

I’m not who you’re replying to, but I feel the same way as them. Take what I quoted from you above and replace man/boy with woman/girl. How is it any different? Maturity isn’t gendered. Taking on adult responsibilities isn’t gendered; heck you acknowledge that when you used the word “adult”, it’s right there in the language you used.

I’m not taking exception to thousands of years of history, because so many of the traits would still apply to both genders and aren’t about equality. Keep in mind that’s different than discussing gender roles which certainly have relevant history. But “taking care of your family” is a trait and women we expected to do that to. Just with different tasks. Same with being honest / honorable and just about any trait was practically speaking, non-gendered, but with gendered expressions of those traits.

I’d also say that if we don’t try to change our language, then it will never change. If we don’t immediately question questionable assertions, historically relevant or not, then it will never change. The best day to have questioned a definition of masculinity that isn’t actually gender specific was thousands of years ago, the 2nd best day is today.

I will say I DO get what you are saying about history. It isn’t lost on me how it has influenced cultural norms and language today. But I’m also saying that, ironically, if you isolate traits from expressions of those traits, even thousands of years ago I could make the same case that the traits weren’t actually gendered if dissected.

Being a stubborn old fool isn’t just a “man” trait 😜

But I suppose, being statistically more risk tolerant is a sign of being a man. Not sure if that nature, nurture, or both I’m not going to speculate. But we are where we are however we got here.

I for one, am amazed I’ve made it this many trips around the sun.